Justified by the Faith OF Jesus Christ, not by Ours….
Jefferis Kent Peterson
The Faith of Jesus Christ.
I’ve been re-reading and have been rekindled by an idea of a scholar Richard Hays, on The Faith of Jesus Christ. And this idea has been very liberating to my spirit and walk in the Lord. It has to do with the misinterpreted line, faith “in” Jesus Christ. Almost everywhere that is written in English is a wrong translation. It is properly translated by the King James, but not even by the New King James or American Standard versions. Let me explain.
“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:20-23, NKJV.
In Greek, the actual wording is “even the righteousness of God, through the faith OF Jesus Christ.” It is a possessive or genitive phrase. Now a genitive means that this phrase can be interpreted as either subjective or objective. In other words, it is like the phrase, the Love of God. That is either our love for God, or the love that God has. In one case it is objective (love for God), in the other subjective (God is the subject) and it describes the love that belongs to God, or God’s love.
In Greek, the faith of Jesus Christ is also a subjective genitive, but has been interpreted as an objective in almost every translation. However, I’ll show you why that is wrong. Paul uses Habakkuk to describe the way of faith:
Hab 2:4 Behold, he whose soul is not upright in him shall fail, but the righteous shall live by his faith.
The righteous in this phrase is an adjectival noun The young, the rich, etc. These are Adjectival Nouns, meaning the people who are young, the people who are rich, etc. Here it is understood that “the righteous” is the righteous one or the righteous person.
Paul quotes Habakkuk 2 times in his letters. Ro 1:17 For in it (the Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed through faith to faith; as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.” Ga 3:11 Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”
In Paul’s day, the Essene Community, called the Messiah, the Righteous One or the Teacher of Righteousness, so it was a common expression at that time period. In Romans, Paul draws on the idea of The Righteous One to describe Jesus Christ, who reveals the righteousness of God through his faith. Paul’s whole argument in Romans is that the Law does not justify anyone, not even Abraham was justified by Law, but by faith. The Law, and obedience to it, can actually cause a breach of faith, because no one can keep the whole law. And since all unbelief “is sin” (Rm 14:23), anyone who does not believe God fully, has broken the Law. But here is the key. Paul sees Jesus as the fulfillment of the prophecy of Habakkuk. Jesus is The Righteous One who was able to maintain faith and not break it. To Paul, Jesus is our champion, a hero, like David when he faced Goliath. Jesus was able to do through his faith what we could not, face the giant of unbelief without stumbling or sin. Jesus was able to believe the Father perfectly. That is why he is “The Righteous One who shall live by His Faith.”
Paul is making an argument here that God’s righteousness was revealed “from faith to faith.” God’s perfect righteousness was revealed in and through the faith OF Jesus Christ, and was revealed to faith (our faith as we receive him). That is why the righteousness of God was revealed “apart from the Law”! It was revealed through the faith OF Jesus Christ and, dare I say it, not by his obedience to the Law (although he did not sin). It wasn’t the Law that revealed God’s righteousness in him, it was his faith.
“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through the faith of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:20-23.
Why is this important? Because it is not our faith in Jesus which justifies us, but the faith of Jesus Christ in us which justifies us. In other words, it is his faith at work in us and in our hearts which produces righteousness and the God kind of life. And what is most important about this is the implications it has for us and our faith. First of all, it explains why faith is a gift and why we are saved through faith by grace and not as a work of our own. It is not our faith which justifies, but the faith of Jesus given to us, which resides in us. Since it is not our faith that justifies, but the faith of our Champion Jesus, whose faith is now at work on the inside of us, we are not called upon to believe God out of our own miserable resources or self generated faith or mental efforts, or our attempts to believe. We are only enabled to believe God through and because of the faith of Jesus Christ as work in us. It is Jesus’ faith upon which we are dependent and upon whom we rely. It is upon his faith, which is perfect and never fails, upon which we can rest and fully trust, because we know his faith is sufficient for every need and greater than every obstacle. And it is why Paul said “I can do all things through the Anointing (or the Anointed One, the Christ) which strengthens me.” He was seeing and understanding the immeasurable power at work in him through the faith of God’s Son Jesus.
What this revelation is doing is freeing me up from trying to believe in my strength, for I knew my faith was not up to the task of believing the impossible in the face of obstacles, the supernatural, and the giants of the Land. But the good news is, it isn’t my faith that matters. It is the faith OF Jesus Christ at work in me. He is surely able to believe the Father in all things. So, I am now pursuing, with full reliance upon His faith, to believe for whatever God so wills in my life. I know that with Him, all things are possible and to Him nothing is impossible. His faith is able to accomplish in me all that is necessary and whatever is required.
So I say, bring on the giants! You’ve got no idea who you’re dealing with! You are not just facing me, you are facing the faith of The Righteous One.
From Galatians, just more scriptural background: Ga 3:11 Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”
Paul again continues his argument in Galatians. What is interesting here is how much the reading changes and how much more fluid it becomes if we translate the Greek exactly since it definitely says through the faith OF Jesus in several places. The King James actually has it more accurately than even the New King James.
Notice the different read: “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified,” Galatians 2:16, NKJV. In the first translation, faith becomes our work of believing which justifies us. “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified,” Galatians 2:16, KJV.
Here is is the faith of Jesus which justifies us… It is entirely His work and none of our own. We are justified by HIS faith!
Again, compare how we are justified. Are we justified by hearing with faith (an action on our part), or by hearing of faith (hearing of the faith of Jesus Christ and accepting his work of marvelous faith on our behalf)?
“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?” Galatians 3:5, RSV. “He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” Galatians 3:5, KJV.
“But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” Galatians 3:22, RSV. “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by thefaith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” Galatians 3:22, KJV.
In every case, it is the faith of Jesus which is set up as the model and as the agent or instrument of our salvation, so that all credit and honor goes to Jesus for his exceedingly great faith, now given to us as a gift, who are enabled to receive and believe.
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” Romans 3:20-27, KJV.
I believe these translations take the burden of believing God off of our shoulders as if we are the engine and instrument of our own salvation through faith we can manufacture and manifest, and allows us to rely fully upon the faith of Jesus Christ as our enablement, and so it makes sense then of the entirety of God’s good work in us:
“ For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10, NAS95.
Now we may ask, “Is Having the same Faith which Jesus has, the Will of God for our Lives? “ Yes.
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.” Romans 8:29, RSV.
If Faith is a gift, will God give us this faith and does God want us to have it?
Yes.
“If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”” Luke 11:13, RSV.
The point is simple. While on earth, Jesus may have questioned his Father, especially before going to the Cross, but Jesus never doubted his Father. His faith in his Father was perfect. He believed God would heal the sick; he did not question his relationship to the Father nor the Father’s love for him. When he laid hands on the sick, he knew his prayers would be honored and the sick would be made well. He did not doubt that the Father wanted to heal the sick and open the eyes of the blind. He saw his ministry as the fulfillment of the promise of God made in Isaiah:
“And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the Sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Luke 4:16-21, RSV.
Since God the Father wants us to look like Jesus, act like Jesus, and love like Jesus, he also wants us to trust Him just like his own Son does. He wants us to become like Jesus and be remade into his likeness. So, it is the will of God that we trust the Father just as Jesus did while on the earth. He wants us to have the same faith towards the Father that Jesus did. It is not a question of whether the Father wants us to have faith nor a question of is he willing to give us this faith… This faith is absolutely necessary for us if we are to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and become like him.
Now faith and love are intertwined, and the faith the Father wants us especially to have is faith in the Father’s love towards us, so that we may be conformed to his Son not only in power but in character. In fact, there are warnings about those who have faith but not love, that Jesus does not know them. Judas had faith to heal the sick along with the rest of the disciples, but he did not love God. My point is that the faith that matters is the “faith that works through love” (Gal. 5:6). For it is not just faith in the abstract, but the faith which comes from being confident in God’s desire for us and in his love for us which gives us to trust God and maintain faith in the face of difficulties, resistance, and hardships. That is the kind of faith that will never doubt, and it is the kind of faith the Father wants us to have, so that in the end we become like Jesus.
I agree with much of what you write, though it seems you have the idea that God gives us his faith and we exercise it to get eternal salvation.
Could it be that it fits better the whole of scripture without contradiction to have the perspective that he exercises his faith upon the dead sinner when he quickens them according to his own choice? Then we really know it is all him we are resting on.
I believe Our faith is a fruit of his faith, and accomplishes important things, yet secondary to what His faith does.
Hi, glad to have you aboard, RC
I am not sure that we disagree. I think what you are saying is exactly my point. It isn't our faith that saves us, but His faith working in and through us that brings salvation: "and that not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast."
The word "faith" in Greek is also our word for "trust." So, if the gift of faith causes or allows us to trust Him more completely, it is still his work. The work on our part is to learn to turn from our own efforts (repentance) into a deeper reliance and trust in Him for everything. That is why Jesus says, "I can do nothing of myself…"
Joh 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
how do i get to receive this gift of faith?
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 10:8–13 (ESV)
So I have struggled with self-righteousness and trying to believe or making faith a work. I want to forsake all that like Saul/Paul did. So I just ask God for the faith of Jesus then and to save me because of the finished work of Christ and look to him alone, not turning from this sin and that sin and becoming behavior modification focused like I was taught as a child? I really want this faith of Christ.
I have also struggled with this issue. I wrote a book about this struggle called Pardoned or Paroled?, available on Amazon: Pardoned or Paroled, Escaping a Prison of Guilt to Find Freedom in Christ”
We must remember Paul, in Romans, is writing to those who are already saved. Romans 10:8-13 is not addressing personal salvation. It has everything to do with Confessing Jesus as Lord instead of Caesar as Lord. Every year, in Rome, citizens had to declare Caesar as lord. To refuse and confess Christ would mean death, impriosonment, etc. Much like Jesus telling them, in the NT, not to fear the one who can kill the body, but to fear the one who can put body and soul in hell.
I have always understood ( per Holy Spirit ) that the way most Christians look upon their faith as the reason they are saved is “ a work “. They try to spin it but when presented the study it takes to really believe scripture is work.
Realizing you are saved by the faith “of” Jesus accelerates the understanding of Gods sovereignty and the idea of salvation as a true gift.
I appreciate this site because many times I feel completely alone in a certain doctrine which makes you question yourself. Corroboration makes one feel vindicated and helps you press on.
Thanks Jack. You might find this helpful
My Book, now available on Amazon in paperback or Kindle. New 3rd edition. Also with this link to Smile @ Amazon, a portion of your purchase will help support the South East Asia Prayer Center or a charity of your choice
Pardoned or Paroled?: Escaping a Prison of Guilt to Find Freedom in Christ
Do you feel sad, guilty, unworthy, or ashamed? Does it seem that no matter what you do, you can’t live up to God’s standards? Are you always trying to be on your best behavior, but still feel like you aren’t being good enough? If you always have the feeling you are being watched and judged, then …
Right on, brother! I’m so glad there are still many of us that believe that we are justified by the Faith OF Jesus and not our own.
Woodrow Nichols
Praise God for His gift of faith! Henrietta Klaasing, South Africa.
Mr. Peterson, thank you for this article. I was reading Ephesians and all of the sudden it occurred to me that I have misunderstood whose faith we are talking about in Ephesians 2:8. Paul was talking about Jesus’ faith not mine. And we can have Jesus’ perfect faith when we belong to Him. If Jesus is our Savior AND Lord then the Father’s grace and the Son’s faith is ours (justification).
I found your article when I Googled, “It is Jesus’ faith not our own faith that saves us”. Wow, what a game changer. I’m new to this thought so this might not be quite the right way to state this, but for me it is the difference between working up enough of my own faith to believe in Christ, versus resting in belonging to Christ and trusting in His own faith (the perfect faith acceptable to the Father). I wished it hadn’t taken me 62 years to discover this! Thanks!
You are welcome. For me, it is still a challenge to keep looking to His faith and not mine, but each time I remember this, it takes the pressure off. One of the consequences of the “faith movement” for someone, who is a performance-oriented person like me, is to put the focus on man rather than the grace of God which enables us. I.e., it makes faith a human work and is human-focused.
Exactly Mr. Peterson. How backwards is it to take faith and turn it into our own effort and even legalism. I guess performance oriented people, which I join you in, are somewhat blind to that nature. Kind of flies in the face of Jesus setting us free. God’s grace is most amazing because it sets me free from me!!
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our LORD!”
Faith allows us to believe and trust in Jesus’ faithfulness. I Don’t mean to make this a running dialogue, but in this freedom I am reminded of Paul’s doxology at the end of Romans 11. Thanks
The declaration of righteous is objective. That objective declaration is made to the world for whom Christ died, and is merited by the faith of Christ, apart from ourselves. The imputation of righteousness is subjective, and that righteousness is received through the gift of grace, which is Christ’s faith in us.
That’s the difference.
I am not sure I completely agree. Righteousness is also objective in the sense that when receiving Jesus as Savior, the Holy Spirit is imparted to us and lives within us, and HE is our righteousness. We are made righteous not just in a subjective sense but in a very real sense through the gift of union and relationship with Jesus.
What I mean by “objective” justification is that we don’t participate in the declaration, other than being the one’s to whom the declaration is made.
What you’re describing are the “subjective” acts that we do participate in. Those would be imputed righteousness, receiving the Spirit through faith, sanctification, etc.
Justification does not “make” us righteous, but rather declares us to be so on the merits of Christ. When we believe the declaration we’re imputed to righteousness, like Abraham was.
Hi jefferis,
I’m new to your site and was beyond thrilled to read your take on the faith OF Christ, which I also believe. Then I saw your reply above where you state, “receiving Jesus as Savior”. Are you saying that you believe such an action is required on the savee’s (just made up that word) part to become saved?
Please tell me that I’ve only misunderstood you. If not, please explain further.
Thank you,
Roger
There are many terms used to describe a relationship to Jesus. During the Reformation, they never preached “make Jesus your personal savior” or “receive Jesus”, they just preached the Word in their own language and the people believed. But it is necessary to believe Jesus rose from the dead and confess him. That is the gift of Jesus’ faith to us who believe and receive.
However you approach it, Jesus is not a distant God, but a very near one who desires intimacy and a personal relationship. Many Christians “believe” Jesus is the Son of God but it doesn’t affect their lives. They may be saved, but if they have no fruit to show for that relationship, they may be disappointed that they never bothered to seek Him and they be saved “as through fire.”
My point is that we shouldn’t get hung up on terminology. If one believes with the heart and confesses, he will receive the Holy Spirit as a downpayment of what is to come, Who is God dwelling within you. Jesus called this being ‘born from above, born again, or born anew’ (the Greek means all those things).
Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness,
which is of the law, but that which is through THE FAITH OF CHRIST,
the righteousness which is OF GOD BY FAITH:
THE SEA OF CHRIST’S BELIEVING
O mighty ocean, the very Faith of Christ,
whose waters run so infinitely deep
Where all my problems drown forever,
for once they enter forever there they’ll keep
Swallow up all my adversaries,
for it’s here alone that I can face
For the winds of time that ever blow,
they have no power in this place
The only place where to God I am well pleasing,
without ever a doubt Christ’s Faith in me does live
Immersed into the sea of Christ’s believing,
and all the unsearchable riches this faith can give
Let me ever plunge the depths of these waters,
let my mind swim with the very thoughts you alone declare
Let your Faith filled waves mount in me with such great fury,
let me believe, who really I am, who I am really, in there
KERCHLOW CHRONICLES….
Beautiful!
https://may-212011.com/downloads/GalatiansStudy.pdf
Hope the above link helps on the study of salvation through Christ. Our Faith and Christ’s faith.
Mr. Peterson,
Is your position here basically in harmony with that of NT Wright?
I am not aware of Dr. Wright’s position on this matter. Traditional Protestant interpretation, viewed through the lens of the Reformation and the anabaptist movement, tends to place the emphasis on the faith of the individual in receiving Christ as personal savior (a very evangelical position, which is my background). However, the emphasis on “my” faith often leads to a cycle of performance and failure, as if the source of faith is within my own nature, ability, and power. I.e., I become the focus of my salvation instead of Jesus as the “author and finisher of our faith.” Yes, we do have faith because God gives us faith, and our faith is to be directed towards God the Father and the Son, through the Holy Spirit. But the source of our faith is Christ in us, the Hope of Glory, and comes from our relationship and fellowship with the Son, rather than something we exercise independently from Him.
I don’t remember if I replied to your question. It has been a long time since I read Wright… What aspect are you referring to in his view?
My dad was teaching this 30 years ago. Glad to see others understand this
That is about when the book came out 🙂
The church can be the most dangerous place because of their false gospel that would lead a person to think they were saved. What could be more important than salvation? Cults work their way into the churches by having the same words but different definitions of that word. I would say most churches have a secular definition of what faith is and no idea of what “the faith of God” or the “faith of Jesus Christ” is and how it can save a person. When a person does not know His faith they can only trust in and try to develop their own faith. Faith means “to bring to belief” His work of faith in us will cause us to believe the right way and not with a make-believe believing. Develop your own study: Rom 3:3 “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” How is His faith effectual for salvation?
Gal 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even(caused us to believe) we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” KJV Others translations have changed to read “faith in Jesus Christ” to fit their understanding. They do not change “faith of Abraham” to “faith in Abraham” even though it has the same Greek structure. (Rom 4:16) One source of the error is from a bad translation of Gen 15:6. The conjunction and should be for. The New Testament translators quoted the Old Testament.
Thanks, Dwayne, for this most helpful teaching. Your use of scripture makes all the difference.
Galations2:20 is another reference that clearly supports your teaching.
“…the life that I live in the flesh is IN the faith of God’s Son, Who loves me and gave Himself up for me.”
Yes. See also, “… But sometimes little words matter. There’s a difference between of and in. Dr. Bernard Scott is an expert biblical scholar who I heard speak at a forum in California. He suggests that Luther might’ve got it wrong in just a teeny little way. If we look at Gal 2:16, 2:20 and Romans 3:22 and 3:26,
“The debate hinges upon the translation of a simple two-word Greek phrase: pistis Christou. It concerns a technical point of grammar, and so it might seem as though scholars are making a great deal of fuss over such a small matter. The stakes, however, are high—both for our understanding of Paul and for Christian theology in the wake of the Reformation. In short, if the Christou in pistis Christou is an objective genitive (“faith in Christ”), then Luther was right and Protestant theology since Luther has generally been on the right track so far as this issue is concerned. If, however, the Christou in pistis Christou is a subjective genitive (“the faith/faithfulness of Christ”), then Luther got it all wrong, and Protestant theology since Luther has generally been on the wrong track. Thus, the difference between “faith in/faithfulness to Christ” and “Christ’s [own] faith/faithfulness” is important because it goes to the very root of one of the major issues that sparked the Protestant Reformation.”
Dr. Scott argues that the best interpretation of the Greek, and it’s a compelling case, is that it’s not faith in Jesus Christ, it’s faith of Jesus Christ. We’re saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Now, that’s a curious thing. What could that mean? If that’s true, somehow it’s either that Jesus’ faith in God ripples out and affects all the rest of us vicariously; or maybe he models for us having faith, a life of faith. He models it for us and shows us what it’s like to have a true life of faith, showing us that faith, and if we can tap into that faith, then we too have salvation. We too are saved. Interesting thing to ponder. It’s an interesting thing to ponder, it’s really, really, really interesting. You can geek out on that. It could even lead to divisions of denominations. Sometimes back in the day Christian churches would divide about those kinds of things! …” from “Was Luther Wrong? We’re Saved by the faith OF Christ” https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogerwolsey/2018/08/was-luther-wrong-were-saved-by-the-faith-of-christ/
Thank you!
I fully agree with your explanation of Habbakuk and Romans 1v17, and to back it up no one has mentioned perhaps the most definitive verses from Philippians 3v8-10.
This is taken from the Concordant version which goes to the original greek : ” that I should be gaining Christ, and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness which is of law, but that which is through the faith OF Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith.
The Concordant version can be checked by going online to http://www.concordant.org
Thanks David.
This article here is the pure Gospel. Everything in me says Amen! The Faith of Jesus is everything to us.
I would appreciate if anyone would like to comment on this thesis:
1. Faith is the logical response to historical evidence .
2. The faith of Christ is faith in the Father, that he will act on His immutable promises according to their perfect love.
3. The basis of this historical love discourse between the Father and the Son is described to us mortals in Psalms, Song of Songs, Job and many more places.
Hi Lloyd, as to #1… the problem is conflicting claims to truth or falsity of the historical records. Kind of like arguments in social media, where opinion trumps facts. I believe the latest research on the Shroud of Turin is significant historical evidence for the resurrection, but getting people to even watch a video or consider the evidence is hard. It appears that to remove the blindness in people’s hearts, it requires the grace of God and the gift of faith. Evidence in history is then easier to access without bias against it, once faith is received.
#2. Yes, I agree.
#3. Analogous poetic references in the Psalms, and such, are revelatory of God’s love for us and between us, and while the whole scripture is a love plan of God for Creation, the most direct reference to the love between the Father and the Son is in John. Most consider Song of Songs to be analogous to the love of God for his Bride, the Church, not between the Father and the Son, e.g.
I didn’t read through every comment, so I may be saying much the same as some others. My point when dealing with this passage begins with verse 21 of Romans 3. The structure of the English here (which is the way most all of us read) is that something is ‘manifesting’ the righteousness of God. What is that thing? It is the faith of Christ, not my faith IN him. MY faith has little to nothing to reveal the righteousness that Christ’s system of faith has revealed of God’s righteousness. My faith is a RESULT of the faith of Christ (‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God’) that God the Father sent him to reveal.
👍👍
Thank you for your reply, jefferis, but I am still a little
confused as to your point. Maybe the best way to proceed would be for me to explain to you my understanding, and you can correct where you think it is wrong. Basically, it is quite simple – that there is absolutely nothing a person can do to save themselves nor to even facilitate or contribute to their salvation in any sense. Salvation is fully and completely a gift from God in all aspects. However, there are many things that accompany/come from one’s salvation such as those which you’ve mentioned above. That is, salvation must come first, with everything else happening as a result of it. Is that how you see it?
Hope that makes sense.
Sorry if I’ve misunderstood you or that I am being dense.
Roger
Roger, I think you have the gist of it. However, God has made us in his image and does desire a positive response in us to his gift of salvation. His goodness elicits a response from us. I think you might get a clearer understanding by reading pages 18-24 of my Short Systematic Theology God is restoring to us the freedom that was lost in the fall through salvation and the gift of the Spirit.
Aken k.
Are you saying that if a person desires to be saved more than anything in life and calls on Christ from a broken heart and hates his life without Christ that it is by works of himself and not of God?
No. Grace enables a person to respond to the calling of God.
And they cannot respond to God without Christ. He is the way, the truth, and the life. So the man in the world whom God is reconciling has been given Christ as a free gift when He comes into the world. Men like to put Christ so far away from His sanctuary, but that results in works. Without Christ we can do nothing. This is the work of a great intercessor. He is their light which God dwells in reconciling them. Christ is the door to God. When men believe in Christ, Christ comes into the heart “by faith” and opens the door to God. They become the children of God being filled with the Spirit of God. If men do not believe in Christ then they will believe all the good they have done is by their own power and strength.
Consider Nebuchadnezzar who took credit for building his empire, but God showed him he could nothing without Him. The more deeper we realize this in Christ by the power of God working in us (the power Christ lived by– in faith), the more it works upon the soul and soften it.
Remember Christ gave His soul and offering for sin, and by that soul we live. Since Jesus lived by faith and God counted it for righteousness, even Adam can come boldly to the thrown of God in Spirit, in belief only. The natural does not discern his gift until he is convinced of God and believes.
Christ, the reason we love God. We love Him because He loved us first. He put Jesus Christ in the soul of men to love God. Christ in every man convincing him of love — something he does not know nor can he perform it without Him.
Blessings.
In my opinion, if an individual genuinely exhibits attributes that show a true belief in being entirely, wholly, and exclusively reliant on God’s mercy through Christ for salvation—as you seem to imply—and not in oneself in any sense, then they are evidencing that they have already been saved, with those attributes being the fruits of that salvation, even though it may not become immediately apparent to them exactly at the moment of salvation. Conversely, if someone believes they can acquire salvation by anything that originates from/by themselves no matter how trivial it may seem, they are still bound by the law of works and are in breach of the law of faith, a law that Christ and His actions alone could fulfill and satisfy.
Salvation is a gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God and from which Christian do all true virtues flow. It is well beyond human capability to bestow upon oneself. Yet, those who are unsaved perceive they can do so through their deeds, and this perception is the distinction between being saved and not. Hence, is Christ the Savior, and not man. The verses below sheds light on how God orchestrates salvation. Notice that those being addressed in them had been spiritually dead in their sins, and being dead, they could not bestow spiritual life upon themselves. It is also clear that they played no part in receiving spiritual life; it was solely by the intervention of God on their behalf that took them from death to life with nothing else occurring between the two spiritual states. This indicates that as He does not grant spiritual life to everyone, salvation is not available to everyone, but only to those whom He had chosen that they should receive it.
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
I think we must understand we are sinners and can do nothing ourselves. Adam was given enmity toward Satan. Enmity toward Satan is the mystery of godliness. Enmity toward God is the mystery of iniquity. The two emnities are there for us to chose whom we will serve. Depending on who we serve determines what we discover.
The truth is that there is none that seeketh after God, we’ve all gone out of the way and there is none that is righteous. Christ saves all those who come Him. Since the life of Christ, which is a life of faith, was given to Adam who was neither Jew nor Gentile, when he forfeited his life, all men can be reconciled to God now. If man was not given Christ, he would never seek after God, never express godly attributes and he would continue to go out of the way because there is no light in darkness. God shined light into darkness but darkness did not comprehend it. Therefore, God sent His Son (light) to save man from misery and destruction. And now the darkness can shine as the noon day. The same righteousness that was imputed to the Son of God is now our by faith. If we do not believe, then we will not inherit eternal life.
We are saved even in the way of the Gentile. Not Gentile saved in the way of the Jew. All are saved by faith of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ lived a life of faith because that is the life Adam was in need of. When that life is lived by faith, which of course is the only way it can be lived because it was lived that way, then the life will come into harmony with God’s.
Christ given to all men as a free gift explains why the Gentile can do the things contained in the law because Adam and Eve could not do the things contained in the law at all. They were on the path of destruction. Gentiles can be saved in this way. They can live up to all the knowledge they know, which might not be the standard by which God holds the Christian, but as long as they have Christ’s light in them, they have an opportunity to obtain eternal life. The law will be the natural consequence of their for God.
To think about how long-suffering and patient Christ is with each one of us…! Christ is God’s forbearance toward man. When men grieve Christ away, shut out that light, God’s forbearance comes to an end. Consider Cain and Pharaoh.
No one can come to Christ or choose Christ of themselves as demonstrated by the verses in my previous post. Prior to salvation, we were all spiritually dead in our sins, making it impossible to choose Christ. The desire for Christ and trust in Him as Savior are consequences of receiving salvation and spiritual life, not prerequisites; that is, salvation must occur first.
If, as you said, “The truth is that there is none that seeketh after God, we’ve all gone out of the way and there is none that is righteous. Christ saves all those who come Him.”, then left to our own means, no one can or will come to Him, but those who truly do, do so, only BECAUSE they had first been saved by God and made spiritually alive by which they will choose Him but as its after-effect – and that is what makes salvation to be only by grace. On the contrary, if one believes that they have chosen Him and come to Him of their own accord, then their faith is in themselves, not in Christ, indicating they are under the law of works. Consequently, were Christ given to all, then all must of necessity become saved.
IOW, all of the glory for salvation should be given to God alone and none given to man – at best, man is but its beneficiary.
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
We have to go back to Adam and Eve to understand our deficiency and what God did for all of mankind to make it so he can come to Him. Man cannot just get an urge or hunger out of the blue and cry for Jesus without it being Jesus drawing all men unto Himself. Where is Jesus? In the inward man, casting down imaginations and bringing them into Himself, making this world a better world because there is no good in darkness; and the good is reconciling or convincing man of good, not evil.
God gives man opportunities in this life to live as a free man. The light in him allows him to have godly attributes. The light in him forbears or delays judgment.
Jesus will seek to draw all men unto Himself. He wants to come in the soul by faith. By faith is key here. He’s already been given (the life which they will be judged by), but now by faith He must come in. If He is successful, they will behold him and desire to have their sins taken away. If they come to Him, He will open the door to the spirit of God. If not, they only have the benefits of Christ for this world of which they will be accountable for. Consider how close the foolish virgins come to God but it avails nothing for unbelief.
Man is in need of an intercessor at all times to come to God and do good. That intercessor is Christ’s life — His soul which was made an offering for sin; which was lived out in faith to give man a perfect life to live and allow him to come to God.
Let me bold in saying, God gave every man Jew, Gentile and Sinner Jesus Christ when he fell in the Garden of Eden, His righteousness. And because He gave Christ (her seed) all men can come to God. That does not mean all men will be saved! However, because of this all men will have witnessed His “eternal power and godhead” and therefore will be “without excuse” on judgment day.
Col. 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I think you are saying that if they have been given Christ they are saved. Yes, this is true, but it is only when He dwells by faith in the heart that we can comprehend His love and obtain eternal life — God. We live His life out before all men in faith. You underestimate the value of belief. When a father gives all to his children, but only one acknowledges him as good, who will He favor?
God gave His Son “unto” all men, but unless they believe, His robe will never be “upon” them. It will not be their covering. They will die in their sins according to the light given.
“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:21-23.
“unto all” and “upon all them that believe.”
The “but now” shows a difference. Adam and Eve lost their righteousness. To win darkness back to Himself He sent Jesus, in whom He hid His righteousness, the same righteousness that is manifested by the law — the same Adam possessed prior to the fall. That means when the law looked at Adam, indeed it condemns him, but it witnesses God’s righteousness that was given unto him after the fall. It witnessed it in sinful flesh.
The mind of Christ does not come down to us. It is manifested in us when we are convinced to believe. But as we see the evil parent believes enough to give good gifts to their children. They do not believe, however, it is Christ in them doing the works through the power of God. For this they will die in their sins no matter how much good they do. Salvation is not works of righteousness which we do, but the mercy of God that saves us — and that is Jesus Christ.
Many people are afraid to say Christ has been given unto the sinner, but by faith He became a sinner so that He can dwell in sinful flesh for reconciliation purposes. Therefore, His life could be given to Adam when he fell. Amen.
Do not mistake me. God does not dwell in man in his carnal state. He dwell in the light who is Christ so He can reach man through Christ. And the Christian is no better than the Gentile to God. It is only through surrendering to the power that works in us that we can be partakers of the things of the spirit of God.
Jew and Gentile are both alike to God. No respecters of person. Before the Jew and Gentile there was the old fashion sinner; and the sinner was given Jesus Christ to free up the will because he was under the dominion of Satan when he sinned.
That life of faith was given to Adam so that he could be free to chose the mind of Christ, which he was given, or the mind of Satan which he possessed.
This is the gospel of Christ. Amen.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The light could shine into their conscience, prick their hearts, condemn them of their sins, but Satan has blinded them lest they should see the light (Jesus Christ) and be saved.
God allows the light (Jesus Christ) to be held in unrighteousness because they love their sins. Therefore, their iniquity has separated them from God.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
God being just and merciful could never justify His wrath toward a helpless race unless He first gave all. Every man has equal opportunity to come to know the glorious gospel of Christ because He lights every man that comes into this world.
John 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
In fact, every man comes into the world “clearly seen” the glorious gospel, but all do not believe. They believe in themselves. They do the works and give good gifts [so they think].
Romans 1:19, 20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
When “in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Col. 2:9) is given “unto” all men, manifested in them, and then refuse, God is justified in His wrath toward them.
Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Not just works on the outside of man but the inside also. Jesus is drawing all men unto Himself this way.
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
There is a war raging in the soul of every man who has light in it, a spiritual battle. No, we do not choose God. Adam and Eve can do nothing of themselves. They failed. They forfeited the rights to eternal life, but because God sent His Son, shined light into darkness, now they can choose which whom they will serve. If they choose God, then that can only happen by way of Jesus Christ convincing them of good, strengthening them in the inward man to do so. If they choose Satan, well, they love darkness rather than light because their deeds convinced of them of evil.
This is the everlasting gospel in a nutshell : )
Revelation 14:6, 7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
It is the faith of Jesus that saves man, for Adam fell and was void of faith. He was cut of from God when he transgressed God’s law. Christ is the light that lights all men who come into this world. Without that light, there is darkness. Christ is the enmity by which all men hate sin, convicted of sin and to love God and neighbor.
Man can do nothing without Christ. He is the grace given to Adam and Eve and the whole population to convince man of good and reconcile him unto God. God dwells in the light,, and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ given to man means that God can reconcile the whole world unto Himself because has been given to all men. God only reconciles men who have light in them because Christ is the foundation by which builds.
It is not man coming to God because man can do nothing, but Christ because He is the way to God. It is He that comes to God so when we come to God it is Him in us. .He convinces us through grace which was given in Genesis 3:15 to do good.
When we do good more and more, we are convinced of God more and more, for He is good. It is difficult or next to impossible to convince an evil man of good without him being able to experience it himself. This is why God gave man good. He did not make him good, but he gave him good. All other doctrine exalts works.
Christ laid down His life before the foundation of the world so that life even His death, and resurrection was available to Adam when he was in need. Notice Adam did not come to God. He hid from God, but now God gave His Son in Genesis 3:15 and he comes to God because Christ is the way to God.
God has given man Jesus Christ. He is a free gift to all. He is the light in them until they depart from it. He won’t leave them, but they do Him. Man can hold down that light in unrighteous. Satan can blind their eyes to that light, but men will all be without excuse because they have seen His eternal power and Godhead– every man; because every man knows how to give good gifts unto His children — and those good gifts are from above, the Father of lights.
You see Adam was given the life of Christ before Christ lived it. Christ lived by faith in His Father when He walked this earth also. He could have at any time thrown in the towel, but He chose to preserve. That life that was from the foundation of the world is a life of faith and that is the life given to all men whether they believe or not. If they believe then Christ comes into the “heart by faith” and justifies them. If they don’t believe, they are not justified and retain their sins, die in their sins.
How much more does add to the power of belief?
“2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The light could shine into their conscience, prick their hearts, condemn them of their sins, but Satan has blinded them lest they should see the light (Jesus Christ) and be saved.”
Left to their own devices, that light will never penetrate into their conscience and heart given that they are already lost. To be lost is to be spiritually dead – they are without Christ and Christ is life. A spiritually dead person cannot find themselves due to their state of death. They must first be revived with/by Christ.
[2Co 4:3 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
God alone, through His command, must first bestow upon them “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” Without this divine intervention, they remain spiritually dead due in sin. This illumination is not granted to all, but exclusively to those predestined to receive it. As 2 Corinthians 4:6 states, God has ordained that light should emerge from darkness and illuminate their hearts. However, this scripture clarifies that it is not applicable to everyone, but solely to those who are elected. Were it intended for all, then all would inherently have this light, which is not the case, for not everyone possesses it; otherwise, none would be lost. Thus, the light must be imparted first, through which the lost are revived and enabled to see.
[2Co 4:6 KJV] 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:7 indicates that it was not by their own efforts, but solely through the power of God alone.
[2Co 4:7 KJV] 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
I like what you said in the first part, however, the second part I have to say I am not in agreement with or I miss understand you.
Indeed, God has given light to every soul and that light is Jesus Christ, but not all have believed so therefore, not all will be saved. Yes, Satan has held the light down because of their love for evil. Yes, it won’t shine into their conscience as long as the love of sin exists.
But the elect are those who respond to the call. So a man can go his whole life being “called” but not be “choosen” because he has loved darkness more than light because his deeds are evil.
Could you be speaking of predestination? If predestination, I don’t prescribe to the concept in the traditional sense — you were put on this planet for life and myself for death. I believe every man is being reconciled unto God, but some do not hear His voice because their hearts are hard. Hence, man will be accountable for the deeds done of the flesh (against Christ) and be “without excuse” because God has given all things (His Son) that man might have eternal life.
Every man has been given a measure of faith. If he sow it in the earth or if he sow it for the souls of men, all will be judged.
This light is the life of Jesus, it is the faith of Jesus whereby all men maybe saved. Because all men have this light even the Gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law can be saved — Jesus being the way to God. Consider the following text in support to Gentiles being saved:
Acts 15:8-11 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Noticed the Gentiles are saved in the same way as the Jew, which is not of works unless any man should boast, but by the faith of Jesus.
And then notice they are given the Holy Spirit too. That still small voice is whispering in their ear too, and striking the cords of their heart to save them. The only reason we perish or enter not into the promise land is for “unbelief”.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
We must believe we can do nothing of ourselves, but it is Christ through the power of God that worketh in us [doing the works]. If we do not believe this to be true, then we do not believe in the name of the Son of God. We believe in ourselves that we can do something good.
Jacquelyn,
With no disrespect intended, I believe that our arguments will not sway each other. Thus, I see no advantage in engaging in an extended debate that would likely lead us back to the starting point. My past experiences have always ended with the same outcome. So, I will share a few verses that reflect my belief that until we are saved, we remain spiritually dead in sin, and a spiritually dead person cannot self-bestow life. It requires divine intervention to grant life (salvation), with faith emerging as a result of this new life, a faith which is in Christ. Not everyone is granted this life; it is given only to those whom God chose before the world’s foundation. Please consider the below verses carefully.
Luke 1:77 suggests that true understanding of salvation and its principles is not possible until one has first received salvation and been forgiven of their sin as an after effect. This knowledge of salvation and forgiveness is granted only to “His people” as the verse so tells us but is not given to everyone. Those who are not of “His people” will never receive it. Thus, it is only by His choice of them that they receive it, a choice for their salvation that God made on their behalf before the world was formed and not that anyone can give it to themselves.
[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
In Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13, it is noted that God granted spiritual life to those who were dead in their sins. They, being dead in sin, could do nothing to earn this life; it was bestowed upon them entirely as a gift from an exceedingly gracious and merciful God through Christ. This is what makes salvation to be by grace and not by works.
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
If you have any questions or need further clarification regarding this, I would be glad to try to assist.
Roger, the danger of abstract Calvinism is that it makes God’s election appear as a mere whim, but it says, “those whom he foreknew he predestined.” I think I deal well with this issue in the resources I gave. God does not elect based upon some whim, but upon judging the human heart, what is the deepest desire for good or evil (not ability to be good). He foreknows the hearts so he predestines based upon that knowledge, just like he knew Pharaoh would not repent. (By the way, where it says he “hardened” Pharaoh’s heart, actually means he “strengthened it to do what Pharaoh already wanted to do, but was afraid to do.” HE didn’t place the evil desire in Pharaoh’s heart, it was already there and he enabled him to act upon it.) There are many scriptures where God calls upon us to choose life or death, where he tries the heart and gives to man according to what is in his heart, and where those who inwardly seek and desire the good are drawn to the light, while those whose deeds are evil run from it. No one is capable of coming to Christ of his own power or merits, but we do make choices in our hearts that God knows and he judges whether to grant faith unto salvation or not. That is where election happens. To make God’s election arbitrary is not consistent with the God who judges justly and who desires no one to perish. If there perish, there must be a reason God hides salvation from them, as Jesus said in Mt 11: 25-30. And if he grants faith to salvation, there is also a reason for that but not based on good deeds, which are filthy rags, but upon the secrets of the heart.
Roger, I don’t disagree with any of that. My only point was that God continues to reconcile them, convince them, reach them while they are alive in the world (yet dead in sin) — which He did for me when I was in the world.
I didn’t know if you were thinking that people come into the world predestined to be the elect and some not.
“Every man has been given a measure of faith. If he sow it in the earth or if he sow it for the souls of men, all will be judged.”
I apologize for the omission in my previous reply, but which I will address now. God has not given A measure of faith to every individual; instead, He has bestowed THE measure of faith upon every person (referring to those who are saved). This implies that the saved are endowed with the ability to gauge faith—the faith of Christ or His faithfulness—allowing them to understand that salvation was secured solely through His faith. It is by and through His faith and salvation that we are led to trust in Him as our Savior.
Roger, this scripture is most misused. When Paul is talking about the measure of faith, he is not referring to the amount of faith or a measure of faith, but to the giftings of God in the context of our role in the Body. This is not about the faith necessary to salvation. It is an unusual use by Paul, but in context it is clear he is talking about gifting, not about salvation.
Romans 12:3–6 (ESV)
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
Jacquelyn and Roger, I don’t think you two are very far apart. In fact, I think you are in agreement, and it is just emphasis. However, you might be interested in a couple of resources: https://www.scholarscorner.com/sovereignty/ The Sovereignty Of God In Salvation And Election, and page 22 of this paper: https://www.scholarscorner.com/a-short-systematic-theology/ (Election – Human Freedom and Divine Decision) God uses human freedom of the will, however limited, to establish his divine justice.
By limited you mean that it cannot save? …Paul tells us that to will is present with him, but how to perform that which is good he finds not. Also, its not he that willeth nor runneth but the mercy of God (Jesus Christ) saves.
When Adam and Eve sinned their will was bound to Satan. Man was not at variance with Satan. It was not a matter of free will at that point. They were slaves of unrighteousness until Christ was given.
God gave man Christ setting free the will to choose who he will serve. No other mind will choose God than the mind of Christ. Free will is a benefit of Christ in man, even to the worldly man, which is how they can give good gifts to their children and freely come to God. Evil parents giving good gift upon is to work good into the life for conversion. Jesus drawing all men unto himself. Reconciling them unto God one good gift at a time…
Man will have varying degrees of light, shine brighter and brighter as they partake of the mind of Christ. Consider all the good and how close men come to God but miss the mark… but again it’s not he that wills to give good gifts but the God’s mercy that saves.
That light will save him or condemns him in judgment, even the Gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law living up to all the light given and still be saved by the faith of Jesus because that life was given to all men.
Unless you think the Gentile cannot be saved? Can the Gentile be saved? And how?
“Thou wilt then say unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast Thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He saith also in O see, I will call them My people, which were not My people, and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved; for He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness; because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling-stone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling-stone and rock of offence; and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.” Romans 9:19-33.
I don’t know if Roger and I are saying the same thing. Maybe? I put Christ in the heart of all men so he can come to God to save the soul, but that does no mean he is saved. He is only saved by faith of Jesus Christ living out the life of Jesus Christ by faith.
I like how God thinks about faith. Consider Jesus slain before the foundation of the world, saying “I will go Father”.
God “calleth those things which be not as though they were.” Romans 4:17.
Christ’s faith was counted unto him for righteousness long before He lived a righteous life on earth. That means as it was in heaven so shall it be on earth. Adam was supplied the very thing he lost by the faith of Jesus. The only difference now is that Adam had to live by faith to obtain it.
Now that does not mean that Christ could not have sinned. It means God honors faith and it is real to Him. In fact, faith is the only thing real.
By faith He said, I will go. And then when He went He lived by faith in the Father. The entire life was one of faith so therefore it cannot be lived in any other way than by faith. In other words, it takes faith to live that life of faith.
Just some thoughts. Blessings 🙂
Augustine has a good summary of free will vs. bondage of the will:
These four states, which are derived from the Scripture, correspond to the four states of man in relation to sin: 1) able to sin, able not to sin (posse peccare, posse non peccare); 2) not able not to sin (non posse non peccare); 3) able not to sin (posse non peccare); and 4) unable to sin (non posse peccare). The first state corresponds to the state of man in innocency, before the Fall; the second the state of the natural man after the Fall; the third the state of the regenerate man; and the fourth the glorified man.
The natural, unredeemed man, cannot save himself by any means, for he is not able not to sin. Jesus says he is a slave to sin. The gift of grace enables a man to believe (trust) Jesus for salvation, and then, by the entrance of the Holy Spirit into man, God enables cooperation of the will with God’s righteousness. God is in the process of restoring freedom of the will, which was lost in the Fall. Since freedom is part of the image of God, God’s gift of the Holy Spirit is setting us “free indeed.” That is why the redeemed man can and will sin, even though he may also pursue righteousness and do God’s will. I am reminded of Jesus saying to Peter,
We are not perfect in faith or obedience while in this life, although as we grow into His likeness, we will become more like Him and temptation will lose its power. To say that only Christ moves in us without the cooperation of our will would be to deny the process of sanctification. Jesus, as a perfect man, still had a choice about the Cross, but submitted his will to the will of the Father, saying “not my will but thy will be done.” In other words, the restorative work of Christ in us is to return to us the freedom of the will lost in the Fall. Only the grace of God brings us to salvation by the gift of Christ’s faith in us, enabling us to believe he was raised from the dead.
Jefferis words: “The natural, unredeemed man, cannot save himself by any means, for he is not able not to sin. Jesus says he is a slave to sin. The gift of grace enables a man to believe (trust) Jesus for salvation, and then, by the entrance of the Holy Spirit into man, God enables cooperation of the will with God’s righteousness.”
The Pharisees and Scribes said, He saved other, but he cannot save himself. The wicked men of Jesus time said the truth when they said He could not save Himself. Christ said, He could call angels to His rescue at any point, but that would not be faith. He had to stay within the parameters of faith because the life was one of faith. If He called angels to His rescue, it would not be faith. The same for the “natural man” and the Christian. They cannot save themselves from sin either.
The grace which every man has been given allows him to hate sin and love God. Many people of the world hate sin. They hate it when people steal from them or their loved ones. They hate it when people are murdered or mistreated. This is grace (enmity toward Satan) working in them reconciling them unto God in Christ Jesus.
Interestingly, the world hates sin, but they allow that hatred to roll over upon the sinner, for they possess no constraining power of the Lord. Christ strengthens us in the inward man when we live by faith to love the sinner as He does.
Some doctrines believe Christ could not sin, but this cannot be true because of the very fact He lived by faith. Anything apart from faith does not please God and is sin. If a person believes He could not sin, then he must account for the life of Christ.
Christ lived a life of faith not for Himself, but to save mankind. That faithful life, every crumb of it, is used to save mankind from his sin and the power of God is working through Him for reconciliation purposes. Christ hid himself in God and partook of divine nature, which of course does not sin, but He was willing to keep Himself back. And by the grace of God, He did no sin. He derived His strength from the Father, whom He revealed and we do likewise in Christ.
“and you life is hid with Christ in God.” Col. 3:3.
Jefferis said: God is in the process of restoring freedom of the will, which was lost in the Fall. Since freedom is part of the image of God, God’s gift of the Holy Spirit is setting us “free indeed.” We are not perfect in faith or obedience while in this life, although as we grow into His likeness, we will become more like Him and temptation will lose its power. To say that only Christ moves in us without the cooperation of our will would be to deny the process of sanctification.”
Indeed God is in the process of regenerating man so as he naturally served sin and unrighteousness he is to serve righteousness just as perfectly as he did sin. Once the life is surrendered to the willing perfect life he has been given — Jesus Christ — it is then he can keep his Father’s commandment to “Be ye holy”.
Some doctrine preach that a man can never attain unto perfection, but in that case we have an oppressive God telling us to be holy.
All men can be perfect where he is at as long as Christ is shining out through him. If he is living up to all the light given to him, God would count him righteous, perfect and holy even if he express character defects, which would be unknown to him. Through the process of sanctification he will “grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 3:18.
We do not work to become perfect, we surrender to the perfect One. We all can be willing to serve God in obedience when we surrender to the willing, obedient One. If a man were to die today not knowing everything, but is willing to serve Him and does by the power that works in him, he would be saved, like the thief on the cross.
Many people think that a man cannot be sanctified while he walks the earth. Indeed it is a process, but at every stage of the process he can be sanctified. Hence, the process. All a man needs to do is surrender to the Sanctified One.
Just some thoughts 🙂
Blessings.
Just a correction. I put “you” instead of “yours”.
“and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Col. 3:3.
To be candid, jefferis, I’m not quite certain I grasp Jacquelyn’s reasoning. While I may not be the most astute individual, and she is evidently knowledgeable and intelligent in biblical matters, it appears to me that she has embraced two seemingly contradictory biblical doctrines, which cannot both be true. In my view, only one doctrine can underpin the gospel: either salvation by God’s grace or man’s contribution to his salvation to include his faith. The two doctrines cannot logically overlap; if salvation is by grace, it must be entirely by His grace. Conversely, if man must contribute in any way, however minor, then man must take full responsibility. Thus, the issue is fundamentally binary, not a matter of degree or nuance, but strictly of one or the other. This leads to the question of how one’s faith is acquired—whether it is solely a gift from God or a product of man’s intellectual effort. Assuming we concur that we are saved by the imputed faith of Christ, and with it His righteousness, given to those whom He had chosen to salvation, then our individual faith must stem from this imputation. If not, righteousness would have to originate from us, not Christ. Yet, nothing from/by man has any righteousness whatsoever. Therefore, it seems impossible for faith to arise from man; rather, man’s faith, like all aspects of salvation, must be a gift from God, manifested from/by Christ’s imputed faith. This is corroborated by Galatians 2:16, which indicates that a true faith originates from Christ and leads us to a belief in Him. Consequently, it would be impossible for man of himself to produce it. To summarize, I believe that is all comes down to whether or not someone truly believes that Christ, Christ alone, and in all ways, is the Savior. If one does believe so, then there is nothing that remains which they of themselves must acquire or produce, including their faith
If this is what Jacquelyn is also saying, then I’ve misunderstood her point and my apology to her.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
P.S. I read your first suggested resource https://www.scholarscorner.com/sovereignty/, and I agreed with everything up to
“But He has mercy towards all who want Him and are broken!”. I would instead say it in the reverse. That all who truly want Him and are broken He has already given mercy to.
The second in longer so I’ll get to it as time permits but thank you for posting them.
Also, not being too good at posting stuff, I may have accidentally already posted my reply. If so, sorry, please ignore it.
Thank you,
Roger
Jefferis,
I can’t figure out how to reply to your post to me of today 8/24 as there is no reply option available with it that I can see, so instead, I replied to this post – sorry.
Without delving deeply into the concept of salvation by grace, it is within God’s sovereign right and pleasure to save whomever He chooses, based on His own will or any criteria He deems appropriate, since He procured salvation and thus had the prerogative to bestow it as He wishes. Indeed, no one has a claim to it. Recall, the Bible states that the human heart is deceitful above all things – fortunately for us, it’s unlikely that God would use this as a criterion for salvation. Otherwise, it would depend on our deeds, and salvation could not be granted on such grounds, as no one would be eligible. That’s why we are told that upon being reborn, God grants us a new heart.
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Roger, yes, our hearts are deceitful. We cannot know how evil the thoughts and intentions of our hearts are until we are enlightened by the entrance of the Holy Spirit through rebirth. However, the natural man does have a conscience, knows right from wrong, or at least has a sense of justice and injustice; however distorted — i.e., the pro-aborts think it is wrong to be against abortion as a violation of rights and freedoms of the individual. From God’s perspective it is murder and not a right or a freedom, but still they have a feeling that there is a right and wrong and pro-lifers are wrong. So the conscience is at work but distorted.
But all know that murder is wrong (if they recognize a human being has life and not a blob of tissue) and theft is wrong (when it comes to their property). So, even abortionists can be saved, like the prostitutes and tax collectors or the murderer on the cross next to Jesus. Only God knows our hearts and in the middle of our deceptions, whether we are acting out of malice or are merely deceived by the enemy.
“But all know that murder is wrong (if they recognize a human being has life and not a blob of tissue) and theft is wrong (when it comes to their property). So, even abortionists can be saved, like the prostitutes and tax collectors or the murderer on the cross next to Jesus. Only God knows our hearts and in the middle of our deceptions, whether we are acting out of malice or are merely deceived by the enemy.”
Natural man can understand temporal and earthly moral concepts and laws, but they cannot truly grasp or believe spiritual matters—those of salvation—until they are saved or born again. They remain unaware because these truths have not been revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. They are dead in sin.
Indeed, not only can a person be saved, but they must be saved if they have been predestined by God for salvation through Christ before the world was created. Conversely, unless predestined, no action of theirs will lead to salvation. Consider the transformation of Saul into Paul as an example. Salvation is granted solely on the basis of Christ’s deeds, given freely to those selected by God, and not by any actions the individual might take. This is the essence of grace.
jefferis,
Again, sorry, but unable to reply directly to your post.
My post was in reply to Jacquelyn’s interpretation of the phrase “measure of faith,” where I believe she meant that everyone is born with a certain level of faith. I, however, would disagree with this proposition.
To me, these verses seem to be address faith, with the subsequent ones, of gifts. It appears that Paul is advising in these passages not to hold oneself in too high regard, but rather to measure one’s faith against Christ’s, which measurement, they as of the saved, were given the ability to make, and which, would reveal their short coming.
In any event, I’m not trying to be dogmatic about the interpretation of the verses, except to say to Jacquelyn that the phrase she quoted, in my opinion, does not mean that everyone is born with faith.
[Rom 12:2-3
KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Here is the biblical definition of “measure”:
metron (Key)
measure, an instrument for measuring
a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid
a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod
proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment
determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit
the required measure, the due, fit, measure
Jacquelyn,
“I didn’t know if you were thinking that people come into the world predestined to be the elect and some not.”
I believe The Bible conveys that certain individuals were selected and predestined for salvation by God before the creation of the world. By this selection, and through Christ, they are freely taken by Christ (alone) from the law of sin and death and placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This doctrine thereby acknowledges that Christ is Savior rather than man. Those who are not of the chosen and predestined will continue to be subject to the law of sin and death and will suffer the judgment of God.
Hi, I thank God for this site because He brought me here. Prior to that, the Holy Spirit urged me to listen to the song ‘God of My Forever.’ After I worshiped and felt His Presence, God brought me to this site. When I read everything here, I felt God’s love for me even more and understood it better.
I praise God because I was able to understand the message about faith.”
Can there be another way to look at predestination?
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ; according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love; having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good-pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:3-6.
Everything is in Christ. We receive all spiritual blessings in Him. We are chosen in Him unto holiness. In Him we are predestinated unto the adoption of children. In Him we are accepted. And in Him we have redemption through His blood. “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thess. 5:9. That is God’s purpose and foreordination concerning man.
Further, “whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son.” Whom did He foreknow? Is there a limit. He must have foreknown all, right? If there were any exception, then God would not be infinite in knowledge. If He foreknows one person, then He foreknows every person. There has not been a person born into the world whose birth God did not foreknow. “Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight; but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.” Hebrews 4:13.
Since every person is known to God even before the foundation of the world, and those whom he foreknew He predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, God has purposed salvation for every soul that comes into the world. His love embraces all, without respect of persons.
“Then everybody will be saved, no matter what he does,” you will say. No, but remember that the purpose of God is in Christ. It is only in Him that we are predestinated. And we are free to choose for ourselves whether we will accept Him or not. Man has free will and God will not presume to interfere with it. He will not carry out His own purpose contrary to man’s will. He sets before man life and death, good and evil, and tells him to choose which he will have.
Has not God gone so far as to fix it beyond all possibility of failure that man shall have that good thing if he chooses it? He has. God’s greatness is seen in this. He defers in everything to man’s wishes. If man will but defer to God’s wishes, there will be the most loving companionship between them. And that’s what it is all about for every man that cometh into the world : ) Amen.
No to “He defers in everything to man’s wishes. If man will but defer to God’s wishes,”
He defers nothing to man. His will reigns supreme and unchallenged by man.
[Rom 8:29-31 KJV]
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Maybe you can read it like this.
God holds sacred the choice and will of each individual. He will not carry out His own purpose contrary to man’s will– That is not to say He does not reign supreme and unchallenged by man… His will is to give man whatever man decides will best please Him.
… So he sets before man life and death, good and evil, and tells him to choose which he will have. God knows what is best, and has chosen and prepared that for man.
No. No choice was given to man regarding their participation in the New Covenant. He did give a choice for the Old Covenant, a covenant of works, with the making of that choice being one of those works. Please in the following verse, please notice the “I will”. BTW, the Israel described, is the Israel of God – spiritual Israel – not the nation of Israel.
[Heb 8:10 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Man always has a choice. He can choose to abide in the Savior or not abide. Perhaps you prescribe to the notion — once saved always saved? In this case, Christ told the women to go and sin no more. She can choose to sin or not to sin. She can “work out your [her] own salvation with fear and trembling” or not.
The reason God is able to put His law into the minds and hearts of men is because men freely surrender their lives to Him. They live Christ’s life by faith (which is a choice): “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Galatians 2:20.
It is in Christ we find that law: I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psalms 40:8. All things are in Christ.
Blessings.
I do subscribe to once saved always saved.
Natural man does not have the ability to make a choice regarding things spiritual, because he is dead spiritually. A spiritually dead person cannot make any choice that will give themselves spiritual life, just as a physically dead person cannot make any choice to give themselves physical life. Life can only be received as a gift from God.
If man could do, that would be a gospel of man’s works, not God’s grace.
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Man cannot put God’s law into their hearts and minds if spiritually dead. As the verses I previously posted noted, that it is God alone who puts His laws into the minds and hearts of those He has chosen – hence the “I will put”. Man of themselves, cannot do so.
Our foundations are different… Yes, of course, we can do nothing of ourselves without Christ. I don’t even know if I want to go there… unless you want to.
Roger, you mentioned what you did not agree with in terms of predestination. I think I cleared it up. Was there anything you agreed with? Or other thoughts you had. I do not think this strays too far from our original topic of Righteousness of God.
Jacquelyn,
Sorry, I don’t quite understand your reply above. I am and have always been in full agreement with the doctrine of predestination and believe it the foundation of the entire gospel.
Roger
this discussion might be more appropriate under this link:
https://www.scholarscorner.com/sovereignty/
Sorry. Actually, there’s nothing more I need to say on that particular topic, so at this point, I’m done
Roger, there is a problem with the natural man. He is held accountable for God’s righteousness manifested in him, even God’s eternal power and Godhead. The natural man loves his sin which is why he is separated from God. Satan has the right to blind his eyes to the light that is manifested in him. The natural man holds the light in unrighteousness. If he would but turn his eyes to Jesus in faith, he would be saved.
God is not a respecter of persons. His will is that all men be saved. God was in Christ, who is the light of the world, reconciling them unto Himself. Every man has the right to eternal life. Jesus died for all, not some.
Romans “1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Needless to say, Jacquelyn, I totally, completely and emphatically disagree with your post above. I think our dialogue has become unfruitful. So, I don’t see any value with us just continuing to throw verses at each other ad infinitum.
I suggest we terminate this discussion for now and should one of us have a change of mind, post the other, and we can reinitiate it at that time
Roger
Come on, let’s talk about the righteousness of God manifested in them, of which they are held accountable for… Of course, as you wish. I am thoroughly inconvenient.